Operation Citadel

[Gunther]

UPDATE:

Since I did the research on the tanks above, I researched the Battle of Kursk or Operation Citadel in more detail. I'm going to depict a possible engagement with "Der Fuhrer" Regiment of the 2nd SS PzGrdr Division, II SS Pzr Corps near Prokhorovka, Ukraine on 8 July 1943. The Russians will have a Regiment of the 52nd Guards Rifle Division in defense behind massed minefields and supported by the 29th Anti Tank Brigade and elements of the 2nd Guards Tank Division on the way to support the 52 GRD.

After viewing what I have created, (A Monster) this battle will require at least two people per side and I know we can do it with TS. Let's play some smaller scenarios first before we engage in something too big.

How are Rhonnin and Road doing in getting set up? Is anyone else interested in playing Squad Leader with us? If you are, is getting a rule book difficult?

[roadrunner]

Yep Gunther said it right. The soviets design tanks that could be made fast and in large quantities. They used them effectively but I would say life as a Russian tank driver would be a bit scary. The T34/85 was actually not a bad tank if it just came out a year or two earlier. By the time it hit the panther and tiger were owning the battlefield. The tiger had it's own issues as it was big, slow, and heavy. This is a problem with the battlefield conditions were less than ideal.

I have another good site

http://www.onwar.com/tanks/index.htm

Edit:

I forgot to mention if you wanted the really bad tanks from WWII take a look at what Italy brought to the table. They were rolling coffins. If I remember correctly several had issues with rivets so that if a outside round would hit one it would then become a bullet within the inside of the tank.

[roadrunner]

If you are, is getting a rule book difficult?

I will scan mine in over the weekend and create a pdf. I will only scan the base Squad leader game for now.

[BCoop]

hasn't the T-series of tanks always sucked? They've been always been used by third world country dictators like Saddam Hussein and have always gotten the shit blown out of them by Americans.

The Soviet doctrine called for putting a large quantity of easily built tanks on the battlefield in attempt to overwhelm their opponent. This is in line with the teachings of Sun Tzu. The Soviets also used Artillery based doctrine as opposed to the west's Maneuver based doctrine which is based on Von Clauswitz. So, when Road said that the Russians used Zerg tactics--they do, in very neat lines and formations.

I learned this from playing COD:2, but the British Crusader Tank (which was actually a decent tank, with the exception of unreliable engines) that couldn't quite match the range of the panzers. So in Africa, they used to get large groups of tanks and do mass rushes on German positions.

It is tough to argue the validity of a game. I have seen the "making of" a few games and they were quite accurately researched. I get my data from books. The Crusader was a very large target, but so was the Tiger. The Armor on the Tiger was much thicker than the Crusader. 1v1 the Tiger would win any day. Same with the Sherman (M3A4). The reason why shermans defeated Tigers is the same way that T-34's did it--Numbers.

Gunther, in case you are interested, http://www.wwiitanks.co.uk/countryindex.html has detailed specs and photos on lots of WWII tanks.

That's all nice links. thanks.
I got my info from
Baxter, Ian, "German Armored Warfare of World War II; The Unpublished Photographs 1939-1945", Casemate Publishing, Havertown, PA (2003)

Isn't that the old Soviet way? Not the Sun-Tzu part, but the cheaping out on everything? It was said that the state produced Volgas of the 1950's could not go over 30mph and could not climb the slightest of hills. Chernobyl was cheap- it had almost no safety features

I'm pretty sure that is true, in fact, I believe that the game that you guys are playing have an "Operation Crusader" scenario. The Crusaders had very light guns for their size at the time of the operation and lacked an HE shell. So the Germans would fortify positions on hills and hide with big AT guns, forcing the British to charge in order to change the tide of battle. Before the bigger and better Cromwell, Churchill, and Comet tanks came out, however, the Brits started mounting the Crusader with a 6 pound gun, then the largest ever on a British tank. I'm pretty sure they faced IV's and V's only as well.

[BCoop]

I forgot to mention if you wanted the really bad tanks from WWII take a look at what Italy brought to the table. They were rolling coffins. If I remember correctly several had issues with rivets so that if a outside round would hit one it would then become a bullet within the inside of the tank.

I'm part Italian, so I can say this- Italy is a country of lovers, not fighters. They should also stick out of any mechanical industry that does not involve very fast cars. The slow ones, like Fiats, are to be avoided at all costs.

I went to Italy with my family and some friends to look at Italian gantry crains made by Fantuzze Reggiani for our company that assembles cranes, ECC. The terminal that bought them (which is actually one of the 6 ports involved in this Dubai port controversy), owned then by P&O, has regretted that decision since then. Fantuzze builds so many cranes because they contract construction of them to indivdual factories. So, you could end up with a bunch of the same spec crane that are all a little different and need different parts. Suffice to stay, they break all the time, and they were running at half of the container moves per hour with the breakdowns factored in. These morons spent $4-6 million per crane without doing much research. You can see them on the front page of http://www.pnct.net/ Their reachstackers, which are cheaper machines (at least $350,000 apiece) also break all the time.

[Gunther]

This is what I have for my Op Zitadelle (German) scenario so far:
8 July 1943 Near Prokhorovka, Ukraine
2nd SS Panzer Grenadier Division (Das Reich) Attacks North on the right flank of the II SS Panzer Corps advance toward Kursk. The Germans have encountered and breached extensive Minefields fortifications over the past 3-4 days. They have encountered elements of the 52nd Guards Rifle Division and soon elements of the 2nd Guards Tank Division will arrive to attempt to stop the German penetration.
Game Length: 15 Turns
Victory Condtions: Germans reach the North edge of the map.

Germans:
14 Pzkw VI -- 13th Company 1st Panzer Regiment
46 Pzkw IV -- 2nd Panzer Bn, Der Fuhrer Regiment, Das Reich Div.
10-2 x 1; 9-2 x 2; 9-1 x 3; 8-0 x 5; 7-0 x 4 (Tank leaders)
36 6-5-8 SS INF -- 1st Bn, Der Fuhrer Regiment, Das Reich Div.
15xLMG; 8xMMG; 3xHMG; 10xPzfaust; & 3xradios*
10-2x1; 9-2x3; 9-1x3; 8-0x5; 7-0x3 (INF Leaders)
36 6-5-8 SS INF -- 3rd Bn, Der Fuhrer Regiment, Das Reich Div.
36 Sdkfz 251 Halftracks; 15xLMG; 8xMMG; 3xHMG; 10xPzfaust; & 3xradios*
10-2x1; 9-2x3; 9-1x3; 8-0x5; 7-0x3 (INF Leaders)
12 81mm Mortars; 12 Crews; 12 Trucks; 1x9-1; 3x8-0; & 4x7-0 (mortar leaders)
12 88mm AT guns; 12 Crews; 12 trucks 1x9-1; 3x8-0; & 4x7-0 (AT Leaders) Support Company for Der Fuhrer Regiment (Mortars and AT)
12 8-3-8 ENG; 12 Flamethrowers; 1x9-2; 2x9-0; 2x8-0; 3rd Co. 2nd SS Pioneer Bn.

Russians:
85 T-34/76C Elements of 2nd Guards Tank Division
94 4-4-7 IN Elements of 52nd Guards Rifle Division
30xMMG; 15xHMG; & 9 radios*
12 82mm Mortars; 12 crews; 12 trucks 52nd GRD SPT Co.
15 57mm AT Guns; 15 crews; 15 trucks 29th AT Brigade
15 76mm AT Guns; 15 crews; 15 trucks 29th AT Brigade

Russian sets up first
German Moves first
START: 52 GRD elements Occupy positions anywhere on 11, 19 & 18.
29th AT Bde occupy Positions on board 11 with one platoon (3-5 guns) on board 18.
3rd Pioneer Co. 2nd SS Pioneer Bn set up on board 18 using HIP no closer than 6 hexes from any visible Russian unit.
?? - Minefields placed on Board 16 north of Hex Row 6 and between the southern three hex rows of board 19.

Turn 1: 13th Co. 1st Heavy Panzer Bn enters along southern edge of board 16.
Turn 2: 2nd Panzer Co. Der Fuhrer Regt enters along southern edge of board 16.
Turn 3: 1st Bn Der Fuhrer Regt. enters along southern edge of board 16.
Turn 4: 3rd Bn Der Fuhrer Regt. enters along southern edge of board 16.
Turn 6: 2nd Guards Tank Division enters along northern edge of board 11.

* Each radio counter has access to offboard artillery fire from 150mm arty for both players.

[Gunther]

I'm going to have to take a closer look at the minefields and determine how many would be needed to recreate the Soviet minefields. The books state the early minefields (5-6 JUL) were 3-5 Km deep. since I didn't want to fight the game in a minefield, I chose a date after the penetration (8 JUL) but mines were still present. The Russians had them all over the place. Also, when placing mines, the army who placed them typically left lanes that would allow their own vehicles to get through.

the German array of forces is farily accurate to the Leading units of the 2nd SS on that day. From 5-6 JUL, the Deutschland Regiment lead the fight. On 7 JUL they passed Der Fuhrer Regiment through their positions to continue the assault on 8 JUL.

A significant factor during this operation 5-18 JUL 43, was the presence of STUKA dive bombers armed with 57mm AT guns mounted under the fuselage. I have not found any aircraft counters in the VSQL set up. Another factor was the presence of Russian Katyasha Rocket Launchers (early MLRS). For this scenario I have eliminated both the Katyashan Rockets and the Stukas because they are not present in the game. Reports that I have read state that there were massive amounts of artillery used on both sides. The Russians have 9 radio counters and the Germans have 6 radio counters. Each one is capable of bringing in 150mm offboard artillery.

Although, the German array is pretty accurate, I could not get a clear depiction of the Russian units other than what equipment they were using and what divisions faced the 2nd SS in this time frame. The 52 GRD was in defense opposite 2nd SS and the 2nd GTD were in reserve to attempt to stop the penetration. When they arrived, there were tank battles at extremely close range.

After the fighting in the 8-10 JUL time period, the Germans were forced onto the defense. Von Mannstein's 9th Panzer Army in the north did not achieve the penetration that Hoth's 4th Panzer Army in the south achieved. On 18 JUL, Hitler called off the operation and would not send any more troops in to bolster the pincer movement.

[demonseed]

This tank battle seems like certain fun Gunther, can't wait to play.

[Gunther]

I'm hoping to save this one for a time when at least four of us are up to speed. We can choose teams and each side can either assign units to players based on either terrain (i.e.: boards or by unit). This scenario has eight boards by the way. From south to north it goes: 16, 18, 19, & 11. I flipped the board on the right so it is a bit different. All the wheatfields you see on these boards are open ground. The real battle had Trenchlines all over the place. We will at least "entrench" the Russian infantry.

I think the easiest way to control who gets what and where is to put one player on the right side of the board and one on the left side. The teams will go head to head, north and south. Depending on how you want to fight the overall battle will determine who controlls what units when.